Theurgy and Thaumaturgy

[mthwinphil]

Hello all,

I'm a non-omni who had the good fortune of attending Crucible, and Arthur's talk, in 2012.

So I know that omnimancy is neither a spiritual or theurgical discipline. From what I know about omnimancy it places a lot of emphasis on practical results. I'm curious what members would describe as the relative advantages or disadvantages of thaumaturgical magic in practice as opposed to a theurgical approach?

[Oyama]

I suppose it's mostly a matter of preference. I appreciate a spiritual approach and have incorporated those elements into my magical practices, but for me spirituality is a separate thing from magic, albeit the two can often overlap. It's hard for me to compare a thaumaturgic approach vs a theurgic approach in terms of advantages and disadvantages, because I feel the two are working toward divergent purposes, despite whatever overlap they may have. Thaumaturgy is, by definition, material results-oriented practice, whereas theurgy is by definition spiritual or religious-oriented practice. The practices of one may often fit within the overall paradigm of the other (both ways), but the end goal is different.

If your goal is to get better at accomplishing material goals, and to improve your earthly life in tangible ways, Thaumaturgy can help you do that, and does not really require you to believe in anything or subscribe to any moral or spiritual philosophy or doctrine. Which is not to say that one shouldn't follow some moral code or that spirituality is not worthwhile, it's just a separate thing for you to develop on your own. That is part of what attracts me to thaumaturgy and to Omnimancy in particular.

[mthwinphil]

Thank you for your thoughtful answer. One of the reasons I actually find omnimancy so interesting is that I know very few, if any, magicians who could properly be considered thaumaturges.

[mthwinphil]

Having recently returned from (an enormously fun and well-done) Crucible 2013 and having had the chance to interact with some Omni members and watch a bit of their magic, my sense is that the theurgy vs thaumaturgy split may largely be a function of temperament.

[LordArt]

Having recently returned from (an enormously fun and well-done) Crucible 2013 and having had the chance to interact with some Omni members and watch a bit of their magic, my sense is that the theurgy vs thaumaturgy split may largely be a function of temperament.

How so?

[mthwinphil]

Hello again Arthur,

This is an oversimplification and generalization, obviously, but I've met a small few people I would consider genuinely powerful theurges from disparate traditions and they all shared, despite their differences, a certain cultivated quality of surrender; that is, a capacity for setting aside their internal grasping mind in order to embody a divine principle or function. That sometimes manifested as surrender of resistance to a guru's presence or teachings (certainly a tough road.)

Omnimancy, from what I saw (and I incidentally find it fascinating and would be interested in learning a bit more) seems to appeal to people with a more active temperament, who engage in the world magically but don't wish to surrender their internal grasping nature.

[LordArt]

Hello again Arthur,

This is an oversimplification and generalization, obviously, but I've met a small few people I would consider genuinely powerful theurges from disparate traditions and they all shared, despite their differences, a certain cultivated quality of surrender; that is, a capacity for setting aside their internal grasping mind in order to embody a divine principle or function. That sometimes manifested as surrender of resistance to a guru's presence or teachings (certainly a tough road.)

Omnimancy, from what I saw (and I incidentally find it fascinating and would be interested in learning a bit more) seems to appeal to people with a more active temperament, who engage in the world magically but don't wish to surrender their internal grasping nature.

I would agree that omnis don't wish to surrender their will most of the time.

I would also say the approach to magic is different in the sense that we don't try to get our power from other entities.

[mthwinphil]

I would agree that omnis don't wish to surrender their will most of the time.

I would also say the approach to magic is different in the sense that we don't try to get our power from other entities.

That's right.

Though I erred by not distinguishing between theurges who literally surrender their will to the spirits and those who, like Shaivite yogis, don't serve gods but use divine consciousness as a meditative template to purify conditioning, a practice I've also heard called surrender.

Clearly, Omnimancy has nothing to do with any of those kinds of practices.