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by entity » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:02 pm
This is more for Art:
Before Omnimancy, what diciplines were you in? and How did you develop the system of omnimancy, what did you research. Im not trying to ask secrets but how did you develop the planned principal you call omnimancy now. Through techniques of a system? or parts of a system, for instance, I'd like to know was it meditation, witchcraft? western systems of magic or eastern systems of magic.. I always wanted to ask you that. Please respond
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by LordArt » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:35 pm
entity wrote:This is more for Art:
Before Omnimancy, what diciplines were you in? and How did you develop the system of omnimancy, what did you research. Im not trying to ask secrets but how did you develop the planned principal you call omnimancy now. Through techniques of a system? or parts of a system, for instance, I'd like to know was it meditation, witchcraft? western systems of magic or eastern systems of magic.. I always wanted to ask you that. Please respond
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I'm very scientific minded, and after my "oh shit" moment of now knowing magic was real, I took it from there. The people who were around me that were magically active was a hermetic enochian mage and a wiccan. I never went down the wiccan path, although over the years I have observed their rituals. The enochian mage showed me some VERY basic energy work, using symbolism like salt shakers and the like. He did his enochian magic just using energy and drawing what he did in the air, although he never taught me anything other than the salt shaker bit (which was just a means of visualizing how to move energy). I did like sygils, so I got a book on norse rune magic. That was probably the only magic book I read cover to cover. I bought others but was never modivated to read them(I do that). What I found interesting in the norse book was to make a talisman, you'd carve a piece of wood, get out the red paint, figure out the rune or bind rune (runes sharing lines/overlapping so they are all connected) pattern, and then at the end you'd put your intent in and see a bubble shield around it and circle it three times with your finger. The book also mentioned doing rune work by drawing the rune(s) in mid air. After the energy work I did with the enochian mage, the two seemed simular in certain techniques, so it became more obvious that the only thing that really counted was the energy part of it. I had seen enough direct effects just from the energy work, so I stuck with that.
So it went from there. Since working with energy makes you (over time) able to perceive it better, I just started to figure out that is what I should be paying attention to. So I went to different rituals from different paths looking for the overlaps, which was energy of course, even if they didn't directly use it, and manipulated it via other means than directly.
Through these talks and experiences, and eventual issues with spirits(someone ALWAYS has to come a knock'n eventually), I saw more and more how things were done. When I first started to take students, their issues came with them, so I got more experience of what was possible. Eventually the concepts of tech came up as more things were taught and reverse engineered. But originally, it was all sygils. Even early Omni is still taught that way since it was it's roots, but direct observation of an active spell is far more effective, but it wasn't even a thought of back in the day. Early on, the only way I could teach a spell or record a spell was to make a sygil of it, that is how I thought of things and my mind worked. I don't do such anymore, but that I how I started.
Sorry to disappoint, but we don't do meditation or witchcraft, or really have our roots in either western or eastern magical systems. That is part of the reason why Omnimancy is so alien to the mainstream magical community. Omnimancy mostly is an observation of how spirits do their magic from what I saw via the rituals(ie. of what showed up and what THEY did) or more direct spirit involvement(good and bad), and then running with it from there. How that overlaps with existing systems, you'd have to ask someone more versed in other systems to say. Considering the diversity of students that are in Omnimancy, I think I would have heard about something by now.
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by entity » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:55 pm
So An Enochian Mage taught you how to use energy to direct it to will?
You experimented with energy and found new ways to use it and to make science out of it? But did any Enochian Energies direct you and help you develop your system of Omnimancy? I see these Enochian Energies are probably the best forms of energy other than Bon Lineage Tibetan Spirit energies. Im my opinion, these systems are probably the only systems that are for real, and have real results.. the rest of the systems are misleading and will destroy you.
So You've had help with Enochian Energies, and they helped you develop a system over time, eventhough you were experimenting.. You had to have some sorts of spirits wanting to help you and show you how to use magic(energy) to your advantage.. and it kept getting more powerful and powerful.. am I correct?
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by LordArt » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:10 pm
entity wrote:So An Enochian Mage taught you how to use energy to direct it to will? You experimented with energy and found new ways to use it and to make science out of it? But did any Enochian Energies direct you and help you develop your system of Omnimancy?
No, no "enchocian energies" helped with anything. I think you ran with that way too much here. ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif) I got taught energy magic via a salt shaker symbolism. He HAPPENED to be an enochian mage, big difference, and I certainly wouldn't say he was some pure version of that either. At the time, the salt shaker thing was a means of draining people of energy (He was kinda a darker magician if you couldn't tell). Basically, you saw the individual as a salt shaker and "saw" the energy come out of them. Honestly, the symbolism never really worked for me very well. I went more "hollywood" with my symbolism which worked far better for me. I see these Enochian Energies are probably the best forms of energy other than Bon Lineage Tibetan Spirit energies.
Energy is energy. Don't read too much into the source. Electricity from a coal plant, a nuclear plant or a battery is still electricity (energy). I know some people term energies as another word for a spirit or spiritual influence, that isn't what I'm referring to when I talk about energy at all. Im my opinion, these systems are probably the only systems that are for real, and have real results.. the rest of the systems are misleading and will destroy you.
I don't get into such politics. My opinion each system has advantages and flaws (and blind spots) and are more or less useful depending on the goals of those who try to practice them, including Omnimancy. Omnimancy is not a religious based system, so has NOTHING for spiritual fulfillment and is only for accomplishing tasks. Some people's purpose with magic is spiritual fulfillment, and Omni really isn't for them (at least for such a stated goal). So You've had help with Enochian Energies, and they helped you develop a system over time, eventhough you were experimenting
No, I have not. I never even used enochian symbolism in any of my spells actually, even early on. As I stated before, I DID use Norse symbolism initially, but that didn't last too long. Rather quickly I came up with my own symbolism, that initially was my own form of sygils, but eventually turned into something less able to be written down at all. Part of Omnimancy is learning and understand one's own unique symbolism rather than trying to adhere to an existing one. You had to have some sorts of spirits wanting to help you and show you how to use magic(energy) to your advantage.. and it kept getting more powerful and powerful.. am I correct?
Mostly no. They weren't trying to help me. I spied on what the spirits were doing during rituals that they were summoned/came to that I was the outsider of. They didn't properly mask/encrypt their spells FROM being copied, so I copied them. (Such masking is something that is taught to Omnis early on so people can't do to them what we do to others). One of the thrown out names for Omni was cleptomancy because we got most of our early stuff at the time from stealing existing spells from others. Spirits that decided to attack me (for various reasons) or I attacked, depending on the situation (like they were attacking friends of mine for example) would use other types of magic/spells which I would then also copy. Got some very good shields and offense stuff that way. Disassembled it and readapted much of it for other uses. I've always been good at figuring out how things worked. Experience is always the best teacher.
Once you know how things work, you can try to adapt solves to enhance things. Trial and error (mostly error) but breakthroughs happen. Other people add their views to the issue and think of things I didn't, etc. and it went from there. It got more powerful because of the goals we were pursuing. The side effect was more power from that research. The more you understand something, the more you can control it, the more powerful you get, which allows you to see more, and therefore spend the time to understand the newer stuff you see, the more control you get, etc etc etc. Such is the cycle. But this is stated in the overview document on the site as well.
In the end, Omnimancy came from me and the other people in the order. Not outside spirits helping. I won't say that over the years there hasn't been volentary goodies that we've gotten from such outside sources, but that kind of thing is few and far inbetween, and certainly not the main or even minor source of how Omnimancy got where it is.
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by entity » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:47 pm
I guess you could say, you pay attention to detail! thats funny how you came up with it. That would explain about astral projection as part of the program to spy in on the spirits when you were forming the research..
If I were to do what you have done. 1. i'd probably learn how to manipulate energy and build up energy. Learn how to mentally astral project myself and 3. go into the spirit world and find the spirits and have them teach me spells and stuff.
the question is.. How would I know that their not trying to bullshit me in the process?
I agree with you Art, I dont do magic for spiritual attainment. I can join any church for spiritual comfort. Results and learning and technique and getting more power is the goal of a true sorcerer. Anything else.. is B.S.
there are signs that a spirit is B.S-ing you when you visit them.. Correct?
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by entity » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:56 pm
Rather quickly I came up with my own symbolism, that initially was my own form of sygils, but eventually turned into something less able to be written down at all. Part of Omnimancy is learning and understand one's own unique symbolism rather than trying to adhere to an existing one.
You hit the dog on the head with that one Art.. Thats the key.. Thats why people love Chaos Magic so much, because of making sigils yourself, symbolizing and putting your energy into it..
This is the trouble I've always had in magic making sigils myself and symbolizing and putting energy into them.. thats the hardest thing for me to figure out.. (and mental projection to the astral.)
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by entity » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:45 pm
how do you create a sigil for yourself. Would you suggest Chaos magic as a primer or a beginner? and put energy into the sigil?
how?
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by LordArt » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:44 pm
entity wrote:I guess you could say, you pay attention to detail! thats funny how you came up with it. That would explain about astral projection as part of the program to spy in on the spirits when you were forming the research.
Honestly, by the time I actually started teaching others what I had learned, the spying stuff was minimal. Sure we still got things from encounters, but it was no longer a primary means of getting things. We had enough to play with to try to understand and find better ways to use it beyond what we saw. If I were to do what you have done. 1. i'd probably learn how to manipulate energy and build up energy. Learn how to mentally astral project myself and 3. go into the spirit world and find the spirits and have them teach me spells and stuff.
the question is.. How would I know that their not trying to bullshit me in the process?... there are signs that a spirit is B.S-ing you when you visit them.. Correct? No, nothing reliable to tell they are BSing. Any detection means there is always a counter means. Other than using other sources to back it up (as many as you can) or do the investigations more directly yourself and hope your answers match. Sure, I’ve seen systems that say you can use numerology to get the numeric equivalent of a name or word to know if the spirit is lying, but I’ve always considered that flawed. I mean, you want power from this entity and you honestly believe it can’t do simple math to spike what it’s saying the way it wants to? My experience, no entity is above bullshitting you. From gods to local spirits. If it fits their agenda, they’ll do it. Giving their word is something different, but even then, it depends on the entity’s reputation. The process you mentioned is a classic means for learning magic. That has been around probably since the dawn of man. There are several major flaws in it however, one of which you’ve mentioned. How do you know you aren’t being bullshitted? Or simply being taught what will keep you out of their league? Let alone becoming a thrall or minion or what-have-you of the entity that is training you. Why are they training you? What is their agenda? It’s rarely in their best interest to train you to the level to rival them, and it is far more in their interest to give you a system with inherent limitations. You go away happy, and they just fucked you. Mind you, from their perspective, they might have given you what you asked for, or it was “for your own good”. Keep in mind, that most entities really don’t understand incarnated life. Do you know what it is like to grow up in a forest looking for food to survive? No, you are typing on a computer. Food is not a concern for you realistically. You wouldn’t understand a person whose life was that, nor they you. So neither is an entity really going to understand what you are asking of them in general to the level that one might like, simply from a lack of a point of reference. What I did was different. I didn’t ask to be taught. If you spy on the telephone guy as he programs the PBX of the company you work for to add a new line, you already know what he did works. You also now know how to do it yourself if you were observant enough. (Yes, I’ve done that in my younger days. My old employer was happy about it because he didn’t need to pay mucho $ to get the phone guy to come out to change things anymore, he’d just have me do it). So the BSing issue becomes a more non-issue. You already know if what they are doing worked or didn’t. That still doesn’t mean it’s their best stuff, but the spirit in question wants to get the job done too, so they aren’t likely to use their worst either. They aren’t use to incarnates spying on their spell work, so generally didn’t mask it very well (if at all). All it takes is a few good spells to rip apart and you just got a good leap up. And I didn’t owe anyone anything. You hit the dog on the head with that one Art.. Thats the key.. Thats why people love Chaos Magic so much, because of making sigils yourself, symbolizing and putting your energy into it.
Chaos Magic as I understand it, is changing paradigms each time you do something. If it’s a wiccan spell, you are REALLY wiccan for the duration, if it’s Thelemic, so are you, etc. I think you are talking about something else. Omnimancy isn’t taking symbols from other systems at all. A spirit may have been summoned by a wiccan spell, but that doesn’t make the spirit itself wiccan. It’s just individual, and besides, seeing the active spell itself, you are seeing it in your own symbolism regardless what you observe it. how do you create a sigil for yourself. Would you suggest Chaos magic as a primer or a beginner? and put energy into the sigil? how?
You are mixing up chaos magic and direct magic. You are speaking about direct magic, chaos magic is defined differently that what you are talking about as above. As far as suggesting anything, honestly, I wouldn’t. I understand Omnimancy intimately, but I realize most are walled off from it. The other systems I have some knowledge of, but more conversational level rather than giving recommendations to them. I used sygils way back in the day because my mind worked that way. I saw things in those manners in my mind’s eye. I got over it. Sygils are just “macros”/representations for things more complex. If you can understand the complexity without the abstractness of the rune/sygil, then the sygil is no longer needed. The sygil only has power because somewhere in you, you understand what it means fully, even if consciously you don’t. Hence why sygils that one comes up with have more power than something from an external system.
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by entity » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:18 pm
Ah
Direct magic.. the whole point!!
If a person wanted to do direct magic and take himself in mental projection to the astral, (with protection) and knock on the spirits door, and say, I want to observe what you do on how to get a job that I please. or Just get money like wall st. or something like that. something mundane to get results.
First you have to learn how to mentally project. second you have to protect yourself in the astral, and third, you have to find the spirit youre looking for..
Im sure you could find these resources with google. I would like to experiment with these things, so I can better understand direct magic. And do these things with love, and without harm to anyone.
and you dont have to give out the teachings of omnimancy.. or the forumula. But The key is direct magic. but you have to have the protection, the mental projection, and the ability to be respected by spirits.. (well the ability to find the spirits youre looking for. and to make sure they dont harm you, ).
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by LordArt » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:39 pm
entity wrote:Direct magic.. the whole point!!
Omnimancy isn't the only direct magic system out there. If a person wanted to do direct magic and take himself in mental projection to the astral, (with protection) and knock on the spirits door, and say, I want to observe what you do on how to get a job that I please. or Just get money like wall st. or something like that. something mundane to get results.
How is that any different than asking a spirit to train you? If you are asking a spirit to train you, the BSing issues, and teaching you lesser stuff/dead ended direction issues are still there. First you have to learn how to mentally project. second you have to protect yourself in the astral, and third, you have to find the spirit youre looking for..
To protect yourself in the astral, don't you already need training? You also would need training/methods to "find" the spirit you are looking for. I've never gone the "I'm looking for a specific spirit" route to get trained, so I really don't know how good or bad idea that really is. I would personally say it would be rather dangerous, since depending on your methods, who knows what you'll have to go through to even get there? But The key is direct magic. but you have to have the protection, the mental projection, and the ability to be respected by spirits.. (well the ability to find the spirits youre looking for. and to make sure they dont harm you, ).
I'm not sure what you are trying to saying here.
As far as "respected by spirits", I was never respected by spirits or even sought them out. Omni (and I) are respected these days simply because what we have done over the years. But that is different. We've proven ourselves and our abilities. Not the other way around.
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by entity » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:22 pm
Oh i totally got omni wrong then..
the whole time, I thought you had to be trained to project mentally yourself astrally and to find a spirit and ask them how do you do this, or that.. But now, This is a totally whole different ballgame.
so yes, you do work with direct magic. ok, i got that. but how is it that you go into the astral.. where magic happens.. and how do you get the reputation that you have earned. and how could a person who is seeking the techniques similar to omnimancy but not quite omnimancy ear the same respect.
Since I never observed the lessons you learned or the techniques you have learned over the years, i would have no idea where I'd begin.. Because I want to better understand omnimancy, So I want to do a form of direct magic and a form of omnimancy without being a member, so that when i seek membership, i can better understand omnimancy and therefore it would be easier for me to be accepted into the order.
I hope that makes sense
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by entity » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:23 pm
also, i want to do my own techniques, and learn my own stuff similar to omnimancy so that I can understand. (because obviously, I have the concept of omnimancy totally out in left field).
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by LordArt » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:27 am
entity wrote:Oh i totally got omni wrong then...
Yep. the whole time, I thought you had to be trained to project mentally yourself astrally and to find a spirit and ask them how do you do this, or that.. But now, This is a totally whole different ballgame.
I reread above, and I really don't know how many ways I could have said that I didn't get training from a spirit. So I really don't understand how you got the impression that I did. I stated it, gave examples and even a corollary. I've been starting to get the impression you aren't reading my entire posts. I'm not trying to be nasty, but from your second post in this thread, it seems you've been fixated that I had been trained by spirits, no matter what I said to the contrary, and it has started to frustrate me, and becomes no longer worth my time to answer. so yes, you do work with direct magic. ok, i got that. but how is it that you go into the astral.. where magic happens.. and how do you get the reputation that you have earned. and how could a person who is seeking the techniques similar to omnimancy but not quite omnimancy ear the same respect.
I tried different books on astral projection, but none of them worked for me. I eventually went to some new age chick's house that got paid to help people project. So she put all these crystals on me, on my chakras and the like. I was expecting astral projection. I asked after about 10-15 minutes if something was supposed to happen. She said what did I see when my eyes were closed. I said my typical day dreams when I get bored. I won't go into details, but my description to her made her say it sounded like astral projection to her. So it took $50 and some new ager to tell me what I had been doing all along was astral projection. Sometimes things work that way. I was expecting more, but what I was doing was mental projection. As far as "gaining respect" goes, I kicked a lot of ass over the years. Initially got my ass kicked of course. Quite spectacularly initially. But I also gained respect in how I used my abilities and who and how I taught people. Even how I far I could have gone but didn't, etc. Like how to win without actually hurting anyone. Since I never observed the lessons you learned or the techniques you have learned over the years, i would have no idea where I'd begin.. Because I want to better understand omnimancy, So I want to do a form of direct magic and a form of omnimancy without being a member, so that when i seek membership, i can better understand omnimancy and therefore it would be easier for me to be accepted into the order.
It doesn't work that way. People seem to make that mistake that it's what you already know that gets you into Omnimancy or not. It isn't.
Learning the way I did would take years even to get fundamental stuff going. Keep in mind that I had to learn everything the hard way. And even then I had people that I ran across I could bounce ideas off of. Let alone all the contacts I made trying to understand how this stuff actually worked so I could observe what they did, or what they brought around did. In the end, it takes effort. You aren't going to be handed things on a silver platter. Go to magic conventions, do google searches on direct magic, makes contacts, explore. That is how anyone starts. I mean, there is even some extremely basic stuff on this site. The forums have more information if you look for it.
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